Dan Plews (00:13)
Adam, how's the jet lag, mate?
Adam Storey (00:17)
On a scale of one to ten, ten being devastating, I'd probably say about a four and a half. Not too bad. I think the coaches summit in March in London absolutely destroyed me, so I was a little bit worried. I'll say shit-scared about this one. But it wasn't too bad. The flights were quite spicy, man. It was three frickin' flights to get there. Vancouver, Auckland, then Vancouver to Frankfurt, Frankfurt to Stockholm. And coming back it was Frankfurt, Singapore, New Zealand, so not too bad on the way back.
Dan Plews (00:47)
That's not so bad on the way back, then. But it's still a lot of flights. I was looking at a few Kiwis going over, and some of them were looking at forty hours of travel.
Adam Storey (01:00)
Yeah, and it's just crazy. I went over as part of the Sports Science Advisory Council, and the other members there, I think the longest flight any of them had to do was two and a half hours. And I'm just like, shut up, shut up. It's not fair.
Dan Plews (01:12)
No. So we've got so much to catch up on, and I don't really know where to begin. But I definitely want to talk about your experience at the World Championships, and I'd love to hear what you did there. I also really want to catch up on the racing, because I think we can have a debrief of some very exciting racing over an intense weekend.
One of the things I wanted to talk about before we get into that is the debacle that's been going on in New Zealand recently with the NZ Muscle story. Have you been following that much?
Adam Storey (01:50)
Yeah, it kind of dropped onto my lap as I was getting back to New Zealand. For full context, you're probably better informed to give the listeners an update if they haven't heard it.
Dan Plews (02:01)
Yeah. It sounds like it's just for people in New Zealand, but it goes into such a broad context, especially for someone like me who works for a nutrition company. I'm the head of research and innovation for Pillar Performance.
To give a bit of background: NZ Muscle, I'd say they're one of the biggest suppliers of sports nutrition in New Zealand, but they also have their own branding. They bring in a lot of different stock, like Switch Nutrition. I know they bring in the Chris Bumstead protein, but they also have their own range of protein, their own whey protein isolates. They bring in glutamine. They're also the official retailer for Centr equipment, the HYROX equipment, in New Zealand. I bought my Centr equipment from NZ Muscle.
Long story short, they've been investigated for food safety standards for a variety of claims, which all appear to be true. These claims go from selling products past the sell-by date, which is probably a low misdemeanour, to another low misdemeanour, which is removing one- and two-star reviews from their product ratings. But the biggest one is that, for example, their whey protein isolate label said it was sourced in New Zealand, grass-fed from grass-fed beef, blah blah blah. But there are videos of them actually buying their whey protein isolate from other sources like the US and China, taking off the labels and putting their own labels on.
And there are stories of people calling NZ Muscle saying, hey, what's happened to the flavour, it's changed. And their response was that the reason the flavour changed is because it's such a whole food source. We get them from whole food sources, so the flavours change within the seasons.
Adam Storey (04:10)
Seasonal changes. Yeah, I heard that one. I was like, Jesus, that's a long stretch.
Dan Plews (04:15)
Oh my gosh. But I think it's so interesting. I bought a lot from NZ Muscle, but I've never bought their whey protein isolate. In fact, I've never bought any of their supplements, because I just felt like they were a bit dodgy. They just seemed dodgy. I was saying this to Kate, my wife, and I'm like, I never wanted to buy their whey protein isolate because something just didn't sit right with me. I bought other products from them before, like I used to buy the glutamine from them, but not their glutamine, the Switch glutamine.
But it's a bigger question at large, which is the standardisation of the sports nutrition industry generally, and why you should always try to buy something that's Informed Sport tested. It's just so important, and that's regardless of whether you're going to get tested or not. You want to know what you're getting in your packaging. It's crazy.
Adam Storey (05:12)
Yeah, it is crazy. I'm the same, I have not purchased anything from NZ Muscle. And probably case in point, because from an external branding perspective, they're kind of marketing to that gym-bro, bodybuilding scene. And as you mentioned, that stuff is just not Informed Sport tested. For you and I, coming from high-performance sport settings, it's just drilled into us that it needs to have that tick, for one's safety but also for consistency as to what's in it. So I've just never gone down that product route, and obviously won't now, because I don't think they'll ever come back from this. I think Centr will be cutting ties there as well.
Dan Plews (05:52)
No, they're not going to come back from this at all. I think most people have been cutting ties. It all stemmed from an old employee who basically made a YouTube documentary on it, and it's had three hundred thousand views now. I tried to find that documentary online today and I couldn't, but it's a very interesting story.
Adam Storey (06:02)
Hollywood loves a whistleblower. Do you reckon it'll be a movie? Might have the Rock, Dwayne Johnson, in there, maybe. Who knows?
Dan Plews (06:27)
No, maybe. Or you, because you are the baby Rock.
Adam Storey (06:32)
I am a stunt double. That's a proven fact.
Dan Plews (06:34)
Exactly. So now they're under official investigation, and I guess we'll see whether they're going to be found guilty as charged. But I think they will be.
Adam Storey (06:41)
What's your takeaway from that, mate, for our listeners out there? What's your fatherly advice?
Dan Plews (06:52)
Well, the takeaway is to buy Pillar Performance products. I'm allowed to say that. No, but I think the takeaway is just to get Informed Sport and know your sources. My rule of thumb, someone once told me, is that the more colour, pictures and cartoons on the front of a nutrition packaging, the more likely it is to be contaminated.
Adam Storey (06:56)
Jeez, that's a plug from Pillar if I've ever heard one. True story. And I think this is a bit of a left-field chat for us, but it's actually pertinent, because over at World Champs in Stockholm I had a chat with a few different people around peptides, HRT and all this kind of stuff. That was part of a wider discussion around drug testing within HYROX. There's just a lot of inconsistencies at the moment. Obviously the Elite 15 are tested, but then what about age groupers, across the board? There's a lot of things being weighed up. And again, the discussions were around how HYROX is about longevity, it's about health, it's about inclusion. And the matter of fact is that a lot of age groupers, we're talking 50-plus individuals, will be on some form of TRT or HRT. So what do you do there? Do you make a blanket statement and say that's a no-go? But then when you're trying to gun for the Olympic Games on the other end of the spectrum, that's pretty hard and fast in terms of what you can definitely not do. So those discussions were boiling up. I think it does come full circle to that NZ Muscle thing at the end of the day. Regardless of whether you know you're going to get tested or not, you still should be gunning for those Informed Sport products, a hundred percent.
Dan Plews (08:58)
It's a super interesting one. One of my friends didn't make the podium. I said to him afterwards that I'd say half of the people in the older age groups are likely taking some type of peptide now, particularly if they're from the States, because they are rife there. I have a number of age-group competitors in triathlon and they talk to me about how rife the peptide situation is.
And my comment to him was that the only thing to stop an age-group HYROX athlete from taking anything that's not legal is integrity. There's nothing else to stop you. Yes, I think they have some in-competition testing, but the in-competition testing is absolutely hopeless. It does nothing. That's not where the biggest effect is. It's the stuff around the training. I can guarantee there are some influencers on top of the podiums who are taking TRT or HRT, sorry, or some form of peptides. But peptides feel like a bit of the Wild West at the moment, and someone needs to grab hold of it. I don't necessarily even think it's a massive performance enhancer, but I think it could be a health enhancer. It just needs to be regulated, because at the moment it's a bit of the Wild West. So that's the same problem.
Adam Storey (10:37)
Yeah, and that's a great point we definitely chatted about over there. What is the balance between what is a health enhancer, like you mentioned, versus a PED or performance enhancer? Because at the end of the day, some people may claim, well, I'm taking this for health, but it does actually have a performance benefit. So then it goes back to the whole integrity issue. Are you happy to claim that podium knowing you've actually had a wicked advantage, first, second and third place?
Dan Plews (11:09)
Yeah. Well, GLP is a prime example, because I don't know if you've followed any of the research on GLP microdosing and the longevity stuff that's coming out. Obviously, if GLP is maintaining more lean mass, it's also a performance advantage, right? So it's a really complex one, that's for sure.
Adam Storey (11:16)
It is. And that one popped up as well, mate. It was like you were eavesdropping on that conversation. At the moment it's getting a lot of exposure, even through the likes of Serena Williams and so forth. I was chatting to, I don't want to get his title incorrect, but he's on the medical board for HYROX. He was saying that next year it's going to be on the 2027 ban list. So again, people, be mindful of it.
Dan Plews (12:05)
The ban list, okay. So I was chatting with someone the other day, and I'm just looking through my notes because I wrote it down, it fascinated me that much. Someone told me this stat: the AI industry is worth about thirty-five billion at the moment. The GLP peptides, seventy-five billion.
Adam Storey (12:40)
What? Really?
Dan Plews (12:41)
Yeah. Seventy-five versus thirty-five billion. I've written it down here. That's the difference. That's how big the GLP peptides industry is now. We do enjoy this podcast, I'm telling ya, it is a trove of information. Far beyond just boring exercise science. There you go, people.
Adam Storey (13:09)
Yeah. We might delve into cooking, we might delve into fashion. Who knows?
Dan Plews (13:16)
Yeah, maybe. All right, mate, so tell me about the trip. Where should we start? Do you want to start with a bit of racing talk, or should we start with what you got up to over there?
Adam Storey (13:30)
I think I'll give a bit of context as to why I was there, and then we can dive into racing. It was one of those ones where you get a bit of FOMO. You and I were at Worlds last year in Chicago, and then I was over there this time with the HYROX Sports Science Advisory Council. It was cool. It was only our second time coming together as a council in person. The whole purpose was for us to deliver a series of workshops. We were targeting them to Level 1 coaches, but we also did some stuff with the Elite 15 coaches, the medical team and the sports team. When I say sports team, that's the likes of Matt Locke, who's in charge of setting up the venues for not only the elite races but HYROX competitions as a whole.
We'd spitballed before World Champs as to what would be an impactful thing for us to deliver, and the topic that came to mind was heat and humidity: how to acclimate for it in training, but also how to deal with it in competition. That was coming off the back of the recent heat wave in Europe, and unfortunately, at the Lyon event...
Dan Plews (14:44)
Yeah, I was going to say, Lyon, someone died of heat stroke, didn't they?
Adam Storey (14:50)
Yeah, it was very unfortunate. A 28-year-old woman passed away in that competition, and it wasn't the only isolated incident. I think there were two or three other deaths that same weekend in different events as well, like one in a cycling race. So it was just rife, that heat wave going through. That was very top of mind in terms of where the sport needs to front-foot this and better prepare athletes.
But also how to manage the venue. People who attended Lyon, for example, I was talking to Anthony Perissini, who's part of our expert council but is also Lauren Weeks's husband. He was saying the venue itself was just not conducive to anything, really. They basically had doors open at either end to try to get airflow through. But when you've got that amount of people and the outside ambient temperature is so hot, that just comes inside as well and it becomes suffocating.
Dan Plews (15:34)
He's JK's coach as well. And I think he still coaches old mate Bo Wills too. He's got a lot of tough athletes.
Adam Storey (15:39)
Yep. He's a top man. But as you're saying, the venue itself was just not conducive to anything. So we touched on a lot of cool things around how we can cool, that's a bad pun, but how we can better prepare athletes in regulating competitions. Really good opportunity to network and see where the sport is going. And probably one of my biggest realisations was the massive step up in the sport, even from a year ago when you and I were in Chicago at World Champs. That was a top-notch competition, but this one was next level just being in that stadium-type setup.
Dan Plews (16:45)
I've never seen a stadium setup, but it looks really cool. And obviously that is way more conducive to cooler conditions as well.
Adam Storey (16:50)
Yeah, you'd think so. My first exposure to stadium racing as well, and straight away, I'm an Olympic Games frother, I was just envisioning how cool this would be at the Olympics. For example, the Elite 15, on a smaller setup with their grid, you could almost hold that in a hockey-type stadium. You don't need a full stadium. The Elite 15 grid was only on half of it, but having the full spectator seats was amazing.
Going back to your point around the cooler conditions, it was touch and go. Circling back to Anthony Perissini, he had his own monitor to measure ambient temperature and humidity. Across the course of elite men's, women's and doubles, he took snapshots of what it was in the venue. He was getting, from memory, close to 24 degrees. On the final day, the temperature and the humidity was cranking, man. I don't want to give misinformation, but possibly high sixties on humidity, I think.
Dan Plews (17:58)
What was the humidity, do you remember? I mean, it's not that bad. When you consider people are doing Ironmans in Kona, the only difference is... well, you continue, because I've got some thoughts on this.
Adam Storey (18:19)
Yeah, no, I completely agree. When you've got an Ironman in Kona, that's part and parcel of it. You're expecting it. But people are still going into these events thinking, well, it's an indoor competition, it's going to be air conditioned, there's going to be fans. But even as a spectator in the stadium, it was the Strawberry Arena, you could feel the heat.
Dan Plews (18:39)
Were you as red as a strawberry?
Adam Storey (18:44)
Pretty much. I'm always like that, mainly because of embarrassment. But even some of our Endurox athletes, once they'd finished the race, one of their first comments would be, man, it was hot out there. So again, it was just a reality they had to deal with.
Dan Plews (18:59)
I made a comment about Kona, but one of the things I think is really critical for HYROX, and is often misunderstood, is that it's actually almost an event primed for heat exhaustion. Because heat exhaustion and being hot does not come from duration, it always comes from intensity. Metabolic heat production is what makes you hotter.
There are some classic papers that looked at the core temperature responses when the world road race and time trial championships were in Qatar. A 250-kilometre road race versus a 40-kilometre time trial. In the 40-kilometre time trial you're talking soaring core temperatures, an hour of maximal effort. And the additional thing with HYROX is that there are times when you have zero convective cooling. And the convective cooling aspect cannot be overlooked, it is so big. There's a great paper by Saunders et al., I think it was done in 2013, that looked at the effects of convective cooling in cycling, and it's massive, but it still comes across in running. So the problem is that when you're inside, you're getting some convective cooling just from the fact that you're running. But when you get to stations like SkiErg, row, wall balls, high metabolic demands, no convective cooling, it's a recipe for heat stroke or heat exhaustion.
John Wynne kindly sent me his core sensor data from his racing, and we did some analysis on it. You can see clearly that during every run, his core temperature gradually rose. It wasn't a massively hot race, but you could see the story was the same: core temperature gradually rising throughout the whole event. Then his skin temperature would go down during the runs, up during the stations, down during the runs, up during the stations. Your thermal sensation is an absolute key determinant of how well you're going to perform. If you feel hot, you will go slow. We published papers when we looked at ice slushy as well, and thermal sensation is your biggest predictor. If you're feeling hot, you're going to be hot. Which is why half of the heat acclimation stuff is just getting used to feeling hot, because if you can be comfortable feeling hot, you generally perform better in the heat. Obviously you can do a lot of pre-cooling things as well, but things like fans at the wall balls for hot venues is a pretty obvious one.
Adam Storey (21:47)
Yeah, absolutely. It's a great point. From your recommendations, are there ways an athlete can better prepare for situations where there's not going to be the opportunity for convective cooling? Other than doing heat acclimation work, are there in-race strategies that would help in any way, shape or form?
Dan Plews (22:10)
A hundred percent. The main thing is pacing. Pacing is absolutely critical, because once you get too hot, the only thing you can do is slow down, or your body will shut you down. So pacing becomes even more important. At the start you don't feel that hot, but you can easily overrun. You can get yourself very hot very quickly if you overpace. If you go out too hard, your core temperature rises really quick. Then you can't do anything to cool yourself down, because you can't dissipate the heat through sweating if it's really humid, and that's when you shut down. So in really hot venues, if you go out too hot, if you'll excuse another great pun, you're going to be in a lot of trouble.
Pacing becomes even more critical, especially early pacing. The first run, the first ski, the second run, those stations will be really important for not getting too hot too quickly. The other thing would be adjusting the warm-up. You want to be doing things that aren't raising your core temperature, because you always think about heat as having a heat sink. The deeper you can make your sink at the start, the more room you've got to go. If you're starting really hot, you've got less sink. So if you can start cooler, which means adjusting your warm-up, not doing high-intensity efforts, more mobilisations, keeping the core temperature as low as you possibly can, that's a really good example.
I always remember your doubles partner in Auckland, a prime example of somebody who did way too much in his warm-up in a hot environment. He was so hot and sweating beforehand, and he basically capitulated, didn't he, after the sled. He was just done because he was so hot.
Adam Storey (24:11)
Yeah, that's right. Rest in peace, Nick.
Dan Plews (24:16)
Yeah. But the things you can do are pre-cooling with ice vests and ice slushies, cool drinks, all that kind of stuff can be really critical.
Adam Storey (24:28)
Yeah, I was just going to say, we chatted about pre-cooling over at World Champs. And I know before that, Auckland HYROX at the start of this year was horrendous. I think race day was close to twenty-eight, thirty degrees for you. I know you thought about pre-cooling at home, having an ice bath. You did, yep.
Dan Plews (24:47)
I did pre-cool, I did an ice bath at home. I did a long one, jumped straight in the car with the air conditioning, and I was still pretty cold by the time I started. I didn't feel hot. I'm pretty good in the heat, not to pump up my own sails, but you know, I won Kona. So I'm good in the heat, but I never felt hot during that race. I didn't feel hot once. I do think those adjustments can really help. You pre-cool, you stay in the air conditioning as long as you can, you don't do too much of a warm-up, all those little things can really help.
Adam Storey (25:25)
Yeah, spicy. But overall, the racing was quite a drama-filled bloody event, wasn't it, man?
Dan Plews (25:36)
Oh my gosh. If you'd told me Dylan Scott was going to win... let's just talk about it. We'll go for the men's, then the women's. If you'd told me Dylan Scott was going to win the World Championships, I'd have said, yeah, I don't think so. That would have been the initial thought. But then I look back at his results from all the majors, and he's actually had a very good year. He's been there or thereabouts the whole time.
Adam Storey (25:43)
Very consistent. Yep.
Dan Plews (26:03)
And he just popped it at the end there. Kudos to him. I think he was going to beat Tim anyway, to be honest. He did beat him, he crossed the line before him, and Tim did one fewer wall ball anyway. The interesting thing about that race is that I think Hunter undid his own race himself, by claiming to do the sled push unbroken. Alex Roncovic tried to match him, and he undid his race. It just goes to show that the sled push station is such a demanding one. It's so easy to over-exert during that station, because it just pumps your legs, and then lo and behold. I think Hunter, if he'd actually paced that better, he probably would have won that race.
Adam Storey (26:46)
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Before it kicked off, I was sitting with the HYROX crew and we were doing our predictions. I had placed Dylan within the top three, I was thinking more like third, and that was based off his very consistent season. Hunter, I had an outside chance with third, but had him top five.
But again, it's interesting, to that point on the sleds. This is a huge learning for any athlete: you can be the most seasoned and experienced racer, but sometimes that ego creeps in. Roncovic is so strong on the sleds, and as you mentioned, Hunter tried to battle with Roncovic, and it just cooked the two of them. The look of anguish on Hunter's face, grimacing in pain coming around. I said to the HYROX crew, my God, that man can hurt himself hard. It was incredible. Absolutely incredible.
Dan Plews (28:08)
Yeah, he can hurt himself. I often... it's interesting though, it's just expressions, isn't it? I'm sure everyone's hurting the same, he just shows it on his face so much. Another interesting point, and Pelayo said this to me, so kudos to Pelayo: he said Tim would have won that race if he hadn't slowed down going into the sleds. Did you see they came off the ski, did the second one, then they all kind of just jogged running into the sleds?
Adam Storey (28:18)
Yeah, yep.
Dan Plews (28:42)
I asked Pelayo why they were doing it, and he said it's because no one wanted the first lane, apparently. So they all slowed down, played cat and mouse, and Tim must have lost about four seconds, maybe a bit more, because that whole group closed. They had a gap, and then suddenly everyone was together, because they basically just started jogging as they got into the rock zone.
Adam Storey (28:49)
That's true. It was absolutely comical. I almost prefer watching these things on TV, to be honest. When you're watching live it's great, you get the atmosphere, but you can't get the different angles and replays. Watching it, I'm not too sure how well the cameras captured it, but it was just crazy to see these guys sending it, absolutely sending it coming in, and then almost comically stopping. I was saying to the HYROX crew next to me, is there something, has somebody injured themselves, what's going on? It was like a crash in Formula One, man, and then you get the yellow vehicles slowing everyone down. Case in point, that lane choice, which they were looking to avoid. Interestingly, Matt Locke, the race director who attended one of our workshops, was giving people a bit of a debrief. He said, unfortunately, they pretty much, I'm going to say it, they fucked up their own race. Out of fear of that lane choice, which the competition organisers had already shut off, so nobody was going to get that lane anyway, he said that poor decision really affected the results across the board. You've just got to race it, man.
Dan Plews (30:16)
You've just got to race it, man. It reminds me of the London Olympics. When I was at the London Olympics with the rowing crew, all week it was clear that, basically, in rowing, if you're the fastest qualifier you get the middle lane, the arrow shape. And all week it was clear the middle lane was catching more wind, because in Eton the banks were sheltering the outside from the wind. So Emma Twigg, we love you, Emma, by the way, I'm going to call you out here, she was trying to be smart. She was thinking, okay, by the final, if I'm not one of the fastest qualifiers, I'll get one of the outside lanes, which is more sheltered. Plays cat and mouse, does that deliberately, comes to the final, and the race organisers have realised this, and now they put the top seeds in the outside lanes. So suddenly it's the exact same thing. Just don't play the system. You've just got to race it, man. You can be smart, but it always comes back to bite you in the arse, I think.
Adam Storey (31:18)
I agree, man. You and I have spoken about this. The purpose of this podcast as a whole isn't just science chat, it's wider chat, and it's coaching chat. This conversation leads into the art of coaching. It's a bit of a clichƩ saying that we talk about with athletes, control the controllables, but that's exactly it. You've got to control your training, your preparation, how you're going to present. Don't try to manipulate it or, as you mentioned, tweak things accordingly, because you can't control that stuff. As a result, it's probably going to bite you in the ass, case in point, which it did with the final ranking results of the men's Elite 15.
Dan Plews (32:08)
Yeah. Do you know what the other interesting outcome was, which I said to you? Some real standouts for me in that race were Dylan Scott, and the other standout was Charlie Bottrell. They had outstanding races. Charlie Bottrell would have been higher if he hadn't had that problem with the camera coming over the wall ball. But what I messaged you about is that, at the end of the day, it comes into this bigger training context. I think this is where HYROX is going, and it will become this way. I do believe your best HYROX elite athletes will train more like triathletes and Ironman triathletes in terms of the hours, because in the end, volume wins. You cannot get away from high training volume. The only issue is that with high training volume, for that first period as you adjust, it's a bit hit and miss. You have up races and down races. But over time, as you adjust to that volume, it's just a winner. I think the high volume those two do is the reason they're so good on the world stage. That's where I reckon the smartest will start to realise that high-volume training is the way. There's going to be more cycling coming in, more volume, lower-intensity stuff, and a move away from this typical CrossFit, high-intensity, twelve-hours-a-week nonsense. They're going to do twenty, twenty-five hours a week. I think Dylan Scott's already there, and I know Charlie Bottrell's already there because he posts his training online. The evidence is clear as well. If you look at the research, the fastest people do the most training. Provided you can absorb the training, there is no such thing as a minimal effective dose. That is absolute nonsense. I just don't believe in that term, minimal effective dose training, what does that even mean? As long as you can respond to and absorb the training, you'll always get faster. Kristian Blummenfelt and the Norwegians, you talk about double-threshold training, but that is not the reason they're so good. It's because they're training thirty, thirty-five hours a week.
Adam Storey (34:18)
Yeah. And as you always say, mate, whether it's in a training context or not, that didn't even touch the sides. It was a cool post by Kristian, actually. I hate misquoting things, but he said something along the lines of a sick day, or a sick week, for him, he's not doing less. How much was it, twenty hours? And I love that. I absolutely love that.
Dan Plews (34:42)
Twenty hours. Yeah, that's his off week, a twenty-hour week.
Adam Storey (35:06)
It's his off week, yep. So he needs to be pretty damn sick, he was saying, to do twenty hours.
Dan Plews (35:13)
It's very interesting, because I've been getting into the science of this quite recently, and I haven't told you this yet, but I'm going to bring you in on the paper soon. I've been writing a paper all about the sub-fifty-minute HYROX. One of the things coming out of it is that, because of this conflicting demand between aerobic and strength, you know, you improve your VO2 max and aerobic capacity, you'll reduce your anaerobic capacity, you'll likely reduce your strength capacity. It all comes back down to efficiency. The person who's going to do well is the one with very good running economy who's really efficient at the stations, because that allows you to do things fast without having to have a massive engine, a really high VO2 max and aerobic capacity. When you look at efficiency, how do we get more efficient? Repetition. Doing it more and more under fatigue, under all conditions. So there's a lot to be said for that, because the efficiency context of HYROX is the most important, as far as I can see from the literature and thinking about the whole thing.
Adam Storey (36:23)
Yeah. Two things on that. Firstly, I hope you don't just bring me on that paper for the illustration purposes, just a diagram. Draw a barbell. The second point: over in Stockholm I recorded a podcast with our good friend and colleague Piers Ploughman from HYROX 365. That'll be coming out soon, hopefully.
Dan Plews (36:31)
Just the diagram, just the photos. Good, man.
Adam Storey (36:51)
He's a good man. Tallest man in the world. It's a great chat. We talk about, again, a hot topic as always, the concept of max strength, strength endurance and so forth. In that podcast I really emphasised the fact that, at the end of the day, max strength is critical to still train, because the literature strongly shows that even in well-trained middle-to-long-distance runners, it's the high-intensity work that's the biggest contributor to improvements in running economy. And case in point, a HYROX race, whether you like it or not, 50% of it is running. So again, the argument that max strength stuff is a waste of time and you've got to do the demands of the sport, which is strength endurance, that's not necessarily the case. I'm not saying don't do strength endurance, I am not saying that. But the context for why you have to do max strength is there, because, circling back to middle-to-long-distance runners, the research shows that if they're doing strength endurance work, so we're talking 15-to-20-rep stuff, moderate loads, that doesn't have a transference over to running economy. And if anything, it contributes to a worsening of performance, because it results in this ongoing fatigue.
Dan Plews (37:32)
Yeah, I can imagine that.
Adam Storey (38:17)
So again, case in point, I loved how you mentioned running economy, so I just wanted to throw that in there as well.
Dan Plews (38:24)
Yeah. I've been really enjoying writing this paper. I'm not going to give too much away, because we want to publish it in a peer-reviewed publication. This is going to be beyond an Instagram post or a blog, we want it to be properly done.
Adam Storey (38:34)
Before we change topics, it's a great point around the volume. Circling back to Piers, Piers and I had a chat about this. We're not even close to getting generational athletes in the sport. Not even close, and that's no disrespect to the current Elite 15 and those that are there or thereabouts. But it's just the reality of the sport, we're still so new. People are still trying to figure out training. And as you mentioned, it is about volume. Even the current Elite 15 are most likely going to step up their volume based on what they understand and learn better. So performances will increase. It's crazy to think that in a few years' time, and this is how sport evolves, there'll be high school kids knocking out similar times to the elites now. Do you know what I mean? That's what happens in sport.
Dan Plews (39:36)
Yeah. You see it in triathlon. When I was growing up, I remember the first people, Lothar Leder and Luc Van Lierde, I think it was in the nineties, the first people to break eight hours, the best Ironman athletes in the world. Now age-group athletes break eight hours. Amateur athletes break eight hours. So you'll get to the point where age groupers will be under fifty-fives. Some already are under fifty-five, they'll be doing fifty-threes, then the elites will be around the fifties, maybe slightly under. You just don't know where it's going to go. At the moment, within the training contexts of the Elite 15, there are huge differences in the way people train. But I think they'll converge and become all very similar, and they'll all go towards volume. I made a post on Instagram a while ago, I'll admit it was a bit of clickbait, but it was basically, why HYROX athletes can learn more from triathlon coaching than CrossFit. And I stand by that wholeheartedly. Even the guys doing sprint-distance triathlon are still doing thirty, thirty-five hours a week, doing it well. Hayden Wilde and those guys, they're doing sprint and Olympic distance. They don't change that much, but they're the best in the world at Olympic and sprint distance. Sprint distance is over an hour, and they're doing massive high volumes of training. So it's a complicated procedure, because there's just so much going on with HYROX. I think eventually you'll have all the EMOMs and the metcons and all that sort of stuff fall away in place of just cycling, running, max strength, and then a few specific station-work pieces around it. That's where I think the training will go.
Anyway, we talked about the men's race. What about the women's? Was that a surprise to you? I got up, I must have woken up and turned it on, and it was about... I think they were just on the row, so I never really saw how it unfolded. I saw this lady leading and I'm like, who's this? Was that a surprise to you?
Adam Storey (42:07)
Yeah, man, it really was. But hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? I guess, given Alyssa's background in marathon, that circles back to our volume as king, or volume as queen in this example. Her mileages that she's running to make the US Olympic marathon trials, absolute weapon. It did shock me, it really did. Watching it live, her run splits were absolutely beautiful to watch.
Dan Plews (42:47)
She looked like she didn't even realise she was trying.
Adam Storey (42:50)
Man, that great Kodak-moment smile every time she ran around the stadium. The stations, obviously, she admits, are still a big work-on for her, because it's all still so new.
Dan Plews (43:03)
It's like a second of a pro race.
Adam Storey (43:06)
Yeah, crazy.
Dan Plews (43:07)
It's crazy. If I was Joanna Wietrecha, I'd be really considering how I'm going to train to beat that next season, because it's not going to be easy at all.
Adam Storey (43:21)
I completely agree, because Joanna, absolute weapon, obviously women's world record holder. But now you're seeing the exposure of someone, again going back to that concept of a high training volume, who's now jumped into the sport, and it's like, okay, I've got some catching up to do. Lauren surprised me a little. I had Lauren within the top three. But again, visually, man, such an aggressive racer. It was interesting to see, obviously she sent that first kilometre hard. And again, I'm just going visually, I'm not getting the commentary from Greg and Lauren on that one. You see Joanna pop off the SkiErg first, and you could just see Lauren sending it, again, to get that almost ego-driven advantage.
Dan Plews (44:18)
Pacing. Yeah.
Adam Storey (44:20)
And just blowing up. I'm not too sure if you saw the post, but she posted her heart rate data the next day. Just crazy. The massive spike, almost zone five, bang, and then it levels out during the comp, then peaks again for wall balls. But that ego run, run number two, cost big time.
Dan Plews (44:39)
Yeah, right. That will be, especially if it's hot as well, that spike will not do you any favours. Also, a big standout for me was Sinead Bent. She had a very good race. Amazing. I'm always rooting for the Brits, even though I'm a Kiwi.
Adam Storey (44:47)
Yeah. Completely different race strategy to Dylan's, and you can see what the result was.
Dan Plews (45:20)
Yeah.
Adam Storey (45:20)
I agree. I had picked Sinead in the top three, and I was sort of doubting myself, like, I'm not too sure if she's going to make top three, midway through the race. But yeah, phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. Very impressive.
Dan Plews (45:20)
And then my personal highlight of the entire Elite series was my good man Pelayo getting on the podium. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
Adam Storey (45:33)
A hundred percent. Do you want to give the listeners a bit of background on you and Pelayo, and how you met?
Dan Plews (45:43)
Yeah. Pelayo was helping me with my training a bit last year, leading up to the Worlds, and I stayed with him and Alina in the lead-up to the Worlds, because they live in Chicago. Honestly, they're such a beautiful, awesome couple, and we've become really good friends. Pelayo's from an age-group triathlon background as well, like myself. I was there with him during that really horrific period where he was trying to get his Achilles right and it just didn't come right, and then he had all that disappointment. I talked to him along that journey, from his Achilles being in tatters, literally holes in it, basically, to rebounding himself to get to where he's been. It's just amazing, really. So consistent. He's a very smart man, Pelayo. I think people don't realise that. He's got a PhD in climate change. So he's super smart, very meticulous, knows a lot about training. He's an ultimate strategist. And did you see his lunges? Did you see them, man? He's so efficient. He's not a strong guy either, not super strong, obviously strong enough, but he is so efficient at the stations. Watching him do his burpees, it's just incredible. He's someone who, no offence, Pelayo, Pelayo's got a reasonable engine, but I don't think it's like a huge Kristian Blummenfelt sort of engine. But if you've got that sort of engine with Pelayo-type efficiency, that's the sort of person your sub-fifty-minute HYROX is coming from. To be honest, the engine wouldn't have to be as big as Kristian Blummenfelt's, but even if you're a 75, 80 VO2 max type person, his level of efficiency is where I think the person who breaks fifty minutes in the men's race will come from.
Adam Storey (47:36)
Yeah, I could probably do it, just if I had a good night's sleep. No, and I think you see that across the board. We're not getting, at this point, and not to say it won't happen, but we're not getting the extreme outliers that have dominated other sports. We're not getting Olympic gold medallists or world-record marathoners coming across to HYROX and destroying it. It's typically people who have been good, very good, at other sports, but not super elite. They've got that kind of blend.
Dan Plews (47:57)
Fifty minutes would be good. You could probably break that.
Dan Plews (48:30)
I've got a theory on this, and I don't know if it's right, but have you ever thought that perhaps not being quite the best is why they're good at HYROX? Because maybe, if you take triathlon, you're that good because you're so aerobically developed that you're right on the other side, you've got no anaerobic or power attributes. You just can't switch. Sebastian Kienle is a prime example, world Ironman champion, Kona winner so many times. He's good at HYROX, but he's not that good. Pelayo's way better than him, and Pelayo is nowhere near as good as him at triathlon. And it's the same on the other side. If you get a really good CrossFitter, for example, they're just too far down the anaerobic side and they can't shift that way. So you have that endurance athlete who's just not quite good enough. They're good, but not quite good, and they seem to do a little bit better. You often hear people saying HYROX is for failed athletes, which I hate, it really annoys me when I hear that comment. But perhaps that's who you want to be. You want to be the failed athlete.
Adam Storey (49:29)
I completely agree, mate. It's almost like, if you've got a hundred gold coins that you can spread across physiological attributes, and to be, going to that triathlete example, you'd spend maybe eighty-five percent of those gold coins on the aerobic component. But unfortunately, in HYROX you can't do that. You've got to spread those coins out across multiple different avenues. And again, circling back to coaching discussions, I had a great question from one of the coaches during one of our workshops, as to what sport we should be talent-IDing from, or trying to poach athletes from. People were throwing out some examples. One person said decathlon, but it's probably a little too strength- and power-dominant. Other people said cross-country skiing, this kind of stuff. They were talking about, from a doubles perspective, but my two cents, and this wasn't just an answer, it was more broader-picture thinking, is that at the moment people were labelling based on the physiological attributes of that athlete or sport. But I said, for example, I recently trained two ex-AFL, Aussie Rules football players, who qualified for Worlds from Australia in the men's pro doubles, and they did exceptionally well. Shout out to David Bardin and Tom Curran. The thing about Aussie Rules football is that in a game they're running 15 to 16 kilometres, there's a shitload of high-speed running, and it's power-dominant being a contact sport. So physiologically it's great. But the other thing to layer on top of that, and this is more the softer skills of coaching, is the fact that those two have come from a team sport, and now they're excelling in doubles. They're used to operating in a team environment, used to getting the best out of people. I think sometimes that really needs to be factored in, because you could have two fantastic physiologies of solo athletes, but put them together as a team and they may not click. So that's a different element of coaching we need to think about as well.
Dan Plews (52:05)
Yeah, super interesting. When I was writing this article, one of the concluding remarks was that I was feeling middle-distance runners would be, for a single, where a young athlete like a Sam Ruthe, that sort of person, who for those who don't know broke the four-minute mile, that ilk of athlete who can start to develop the strength attributes, would be the key. But, you know, I said cross-country skiing, and it always makes me laugh, because honestly, Norway has the most dodgy metabolic carts. I just think their VO2 max data is so bogus. I love that Norway does great research, but their metabolic cart data is just very suspect.
Adam Storey (52:45)
Plus or minus twenty. Before my brain forgets, a real good shout out to Pelayo, that was phenomenal. I bumped into Alina before his competition and had a good chat with her, but he was just dialled in, so I didn't want to disrupt him. It was crazy. I remember you and I were having dinner with him in Chicago after the race. Was it a...
Dan Plews (53:09)
I forgot you remembered, because I thought you were just too busy eating that deep-pan pizza.
Adam Storey (53:25)
Yeah, deep-dish pizza is amazing. But was it a full rupture, his Achilles?
Dan Plews (53:30)
No, it wasn't a full rupture, but it was hanging on by a thread, basically. He went over to Spain, he saw a really big specialist, he had three PRPs in there. He's my inspiration for an injured Achilles. It shows that anything can happen.
Adam Storey (53:34)
Yeah. To go from that tragic state, and rightly so he was in it at that post-race meal in Chicago, to podium a year later. What a great story.
Dan Plews (53:56)
What a legend. We're going to get Pelayo and Alina on the podcast together, which will be a lot of fun. I've already spoken to Pelayo about it. They're in the Dolomites at the moment, but they're going to come on together, which will be epic. The last thing to talk about, really, is the women's doubles as well.
Adam Storey (54:06)
Yeah, man.
Dan Plews (54:22)
That was, I think, the least surprising. It was probably the only race of the weekend that went as expected, almost, because they're the world record holders, Lauren Weeks and partner. They were quite dominant, to be fair.
Adam Storey (54:39)
I agree. I think first place, yep, that was locked in. I did think Joanna and Jess would have podiumed, though. Getting fourth, obviously that's close, but that was probably the shock for me.
Dan Plews (54:58)
There were only five seconds, though. Five seconds off the podium.
Adam Storey (55:01)
Yeah. It's a great sign. It just means it's a sign of the rise and the talent. But in saying that, obviously that was the last time you're getting those mixed pairings.
Dan Plews (55:16)
I think...
Adam Storey (55:21)
What's your take on it? You're a fan of...
Dan Plews (55:28)
I'm a fan. I think it's good. I think it should be that way. I don't actually know how it's going to run with age groups. Age groups is any country still, or is it within the same region?
Adam Storey (55:44)
I'm pretty sure that's any country. But the elites, it's interesting, some people think it's such a silly rule, but I'm a big fan of it.
Dan Plews (55:54)
Yeah, it's a great rule. I wonder, Pelayo must be quite close to getting his green card in the US, so maybe he might be going back with Rich Ryan, who knows?
Adam Storey (56:03)
Yeah.
Dan Plews (56:06)
What was I going to say? What about regionals for the Elite 15, is that still a thing next year?
Adam Storey (56:16)
From what I understand, I believe it is, yeah.
Dan Plews (56:19)
Because in the regionals, do you have to be from the same country, or could it be Australia and New Zealand forming a team?
Adam Storey (56:25)
Great question.
Dan Plews (56:26)
We need to find that out. Anyway, what else is going on this week? We're wrapping up.
Adam Storey (56:36)
Yeah. It's sort of just a bit of a catch-up mode now. There's some cool stuff on the boil for HYROX as a whole. Young Stars is a big hot topic at the moment as well. For our listeners who may not be familiar with it, that's the kids' version of HYROX, which is very cool. It's ages eight to fifteen, and they've got four age categories spread across that. Again, shout out to Piers Ploughman, who's doing a lot of amazing work in that space. I'm doing a bit of work with Piers at the moment to help develop a strength and conditioning framework for the kids. The reason I put my hand up for that one is I'm a huge fan of it, mainly because my son Cully, he's 10, is just an absolute training frother, much like his old man. He really wants to get involved in that as well, and we're just waiting for Young Stars to come down this way, which would be cool.
Dan Plews (57:19)
Yeah, that's cool. What's the minimum age? I think the minimum age is eight, isn't it? So Jacob, Bella can get into it. Jake will be a bit young still, but he'll love it.
Adam Storey (57:50)
Yeah. It's really cool, because it's so awesome to see these kids competing and loving it. We're viewing it not only as trying to make them HYROX athletes and viewing HYROX as a sport, but it has so many other crossover benefits for health and wellness. When you look at the youth development research, it's not about early specialisation, that shows it actually blunts performance. HYROX being so many different movement patterns, so many different ways to train, that's going to help them in all other sports as well.
Dan Plews (58:09)
Coordination and all that. Early specialisation holds you back. My brother's kids did the one in Rotterdam. They did it and they loved it. Other things in the Endurox space: we're just about to launch our new Endurox intelligence system as well, which will be very exciting. We're going to be the first platform to ever do that. To give a bit of background, we'll probably launch it with current members next week, so it'll be going into their programmes. What happens is that through the Endurox intelligence system, it will look at your race results, it'll pull all your race results, and you can choose any race you want to base your training off. Then it'll look at where your strengths and weaknesses lie in terms of the stations. From that, it will choose different exercises. So you'll have one all-in exercise, three priority, and then five maintenance, which will include the running as well. So, for example, rather than at the end of a HYROX endurance session it being like a 10-minute EMOM of wall balls or whatever, it will specifically choose your all-in station or your priority station. So every time you do HYROX sessions, it's more individualised to where you need to work on your strengths and weaknesses. That's pretty exciting. I think we're only going to develop it further now, to what we talked about before with the force-velocity profiling, then allowing some of the strength sessions to be more geared towards your station weaknesses as well. So that's pretty exciting. Been working hard on that in the background, and it's all finally coming together. These things always take longer than you expect, don't they?
Adam Storey (59:51)
They do, mate. They absolutely do. But hey, we're getting there. That's the main thing.
Dan Plews (1:00:04)
Yeah. Right, mate. Cool. Well, I guess until next time.
Adam Storey (1:00:13)
Until next time, my friend.
Dan Plews (1:00:15)
Thanks for listening, people. Ciao ciao.
Adam Storey (1:00:17)
Catch you.
